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Topic: is this True or False??
Replies: 22   Last Post: Aug 13, 2014 9:01 PM

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John F. Eldredge

Posts: 24
Registered: 10/23/07
Re: is this True or False??
Posted: Aug 12, 2014 11:39 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 19:02:28 -0700, Jeanne Douglas wrote:

> In article
> <Jason-1208141849470001@67-150-125-130.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>

>> In article <hlwdjsd2-55AE57.16211612082014@news.giganews.com>, Jeanne
>> Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>>

>> > In article
>> > <Jason-1208141535580001@67-150-127-5.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>,
>> > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> >

>> > > In article <c4vib7FciiqU1@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed"
>> > > <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >

>> > > > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> > > > news:Jason-1208141403370001@67-150-127-5.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com...

>> > > > > In article <c4u71oF3hfbU1@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed"
>> > > > > <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >

>> > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> > > > >> news:Jason-1108142350280001@67-150-124-249.lsan.mdsg-

pacwest.com...
>> > > > >> > In article
>> > > > >> > <hlwdjsd2-095DB8.20522411082014@news.giganews.com>, Jeanne
>> > > > >> > Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >> >

>> > > > >> >> In article
>> > > > >> >> <Jason-1108141859290001@67-150-120-49.lsan.mdsg-

pacwest.com>,
>> > > > >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> > > > >> >>

>> > > > >> >> > In article
>> > > > >> >> > <hlwdjsd2-98807F.18412511082014@news.giganews.com>,
>> > > > >> >> > Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >> >> >

>> > > > >> >> > > In article
>> > > > >> >> > > <Jason-1108141843310001@67-150-120-49.lsan.mdsg-

pacwest.com>,
>> > > > >> >> > > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> > > > >> >> > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > In article <c4t34rFr6scU1@mid.individual.net>, "Rod
>> > > > >> >> > > > Speed"
>> > > > >> >> > > > <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >> >> > > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> > > > >> >> > > > >

>> > > news:Jason-1108141444140001@67-150-122-172.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com...
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > In article <c4rksjFhi4pU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > "Rod Speed"
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> news:c4rem8Fg8hhU1@mid.individual.net...

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > On 11/08/2014 09:51, Rod Speed wrote:
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Jason <Jason@nospam.com> wrote
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>> Mike Duffy <md_002@videotron.ca> wrote
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>> Alex W. wrote
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>>> Our only reassurance at the moment is
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>>> that Pakistani missiles do not have the
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>>> reach to hit Europe

>> or the
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>>> US.
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>> Surely it would be easy enough to put some
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>>> into shipping containers.

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>> And trivial to detect them if they did
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>>> that.

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> I hope that you are correct. I have visited
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> San

>> Diego
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> and seen dozens of huge ships loaded with
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> shipping

>> containers.
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> Was every one of those shipping containers
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> checked for radiation?

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Don,t need to check every one, only those
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> that have come from areas where someone might
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> have put one in there.

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > AKA "the rest of the world".
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> Nope.
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > Containers are in permanent transit from one
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > port to

>> > > > >> > another. It
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > would be far from unusual for a container to
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > leave China, be offloaded in Vietnam or
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > Indonesia, put on another ship to the
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > Netherlands with a

>> > > > >> > break
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > in Oman and perhaps the Suez Canal, before
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > arriving at a US port.

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> Irrelevant to where it has just come from.
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > As most countries have active terrorist
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > cells,

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> Even sillier than you usually manage.
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>

>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > all containers are effectively suspect.
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >>
>> > > > >> >> > > > > >> Wrong, as always.

>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > Let's say that Iran placed a nuke bomb in a
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > shipping container and placed it aboard one of
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > their ships and transported it to a port in
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > England and off-loaded it.

>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > It would be appropriate to check it there given
>> > > > >> >> > > > > where it had

>> > > > >> > come from.
>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > And checking it there would be useless if they
>> > > > >> >> > > > > chose to fire it as the ship showed up in the
>> > > > >> >> > > > > harbour.
>> > > > >> >> > > > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > > > They would pay off some workers at the port and
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > ask

>> them to
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > load the shipping container on a cargo ship
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > headed to San Diego.

>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > It doesn,t work like that.
>> > > > >> >> > > > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > > > The port workers in San Diego would also be paid
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > off.

>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > It doesn,t work like that either.
>> > > > >> >> > > > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > > > The shipping container would be off loaded to a
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > truck and the truck driver would take it to a
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > warehouse. The terrorists could set off that nuke
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > bomb anywhere in America that they wanted to set
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > it off.

>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > And it could be set off on the ship as it comes
>> > > > >> >> > > > > into

>> the port
>> > > > >> >> > > > > too.
>> > > > >> >> > > > >

>> > > > >> >> > > > > > Tom Clancy gets some of the credit for this
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > information since some of the information was
>> > > > >> >> > > > > > part of the plot in "The Sum of All Fears".

>> > > > >> >> > > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > > And his scenario has holes you can drive full
>> > > > >> >> > > > > carrier

>> > > > >> > battlegroup thru.
>> > > > >> >> > > >
>> > > > >> >> > > > I hope it never happens. However, I have been to San

>> Diego and
>> > > > >> >> > > > seen thousands of shipping containers on huge ships.
>> > > > >> >> > > > I doubt that very

>> > > > >> > many of
>> > > > >> >> > > > them were inspected with radiation detectors.
>> > > > >> >> > >
>> > > > >> >> > > Why?

>> > > > >> >> >
>> > > > >> >> > It's a guess. It would slow down the process if 30
>> > > > >> >> > minutes to an hour was spent on each inspection.

>> > > > >> >>
>> > > > >> >> Why would it take 30 minutes to an hour to run a detector
>> > > > >> >> over a container?

>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > An excellent test would involve opening the doors of the
>> > > > >> > shipping containers and testing for radiation with a
>> > > > >> > radiation detector.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-156.htm

>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> That doesn,t take anything like 30 mins to an hour.

>> > > >
>> > > > > This pdf file indicates that only 7% to 8% of the shipping
>> > > > > containers that arrive at Jersey's Port Newark are checked for
>> > > > > evidence of radiation.

>> > > >
>> > > > That pdf just quotes a USA Today article and its far from clear
>> > > > how accurate that figure is or how true that is for other ports
>> > > > either.
>> > > >
>> > > > And that percentage is quite adequate for that particular port if
>> > > > you are selective about which you scan based on their origin.
>> > > >

>> > > > > Jersey's Port Newark alone, 5000-6000 containers arrive daily.
>> > > > > [2] With the ...
>> > > > > containers that arrive each day, 7% to 8% are put through a
>> > > > > gamma ray detector,
>> > > > > and from those ... 361 ports." [5] Many fear that a terrorist
>> > > > > organization may

>> > > >
>> > > > > esri.com/library/userconf/hss06/docs/shipping.pdf
>> > > >
>> > > > Again, that should be
>> > > >
>> > > > http://proceedings.esri.com/library/userconf/hss06/docs/

shipping.pdf
>> > >
>> > > I agree that if there was only ONE shipping container directly in
>> > > front of the investigators, the door could be opened within 10
>> > > minutes or less.
>> > >
>> > > The problem: the shipping containers are stacked on top of each
>> > > other and it would take lots of time to climb on ladders or
>> > > motorized elevator devices to get to the upper containers. That is
>> > > why I used the average of 30 minutes to an hour.

>> >
>> >
>> > Why do they have to open the containers? Unless they're made of lead,
>> > radiation can be detected without opening them.

>>
>> If the nuke bomb was enclosed in a special lead sealed box, I doubt
>> that radiation could be detected unless the doors of the shipping
>> container were opened. It's my guess that any radiation released from
>> the sealed lead box would remain within the shipping container.

>
>
> If the bomb were in lead, the container would be considerably heavier
> than normal and that would trigger more investigation.


That depends upon what the supposed cargo is. If the bomb + shielding
weighs the same as what is supposedly in the container, then you would
need to either open the doors or use some form of scanner, such as an X-
ray machine, that would reveal that the mass concentration within the
container didn't match what was inspected. One regularly sees flatbed
trucks on the highway, with a trailer empty except for some (presumably-
heavy) piece of machinery strapped to the center of the trailer.



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