Date: Oct 2, 2012 12:49 PM
Author: Wayne Bishop
Subject: Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
That 800 pound gorilla, in this case, is teacher preparation and the
public school environment. Genuine, consistent academic preparation
after competitive and quality selection of prospective professional
education personnel without a plethora of really worthless education
courses working in a school environment where such is respected by
students, parents, and administrators and the industry would get much
more respect and this would be reflected in tangible ways as
well. Ain't gonna happen.
At 06:09 PM 10/1/2012, Paul Tanner wrote:
>These "benefits" are things like health care and pensions to retire
>on, things that in these other countries are provided by the *federal*
>governments of these countries, sometimes in partnerships with
>corporations. That is, they centralize payment for these "benefits".
>Since I talked most specifically about Japan below, see
>As I said in
>"Re: Is This Really Happening?"
>"...progressive economic philosophy is right and conservative economic
>philosophy is wrong.
>The former says that many times (not always), it is better to have
>more centralization of government services since with more
>centralization comes a greater revenue base, which means that
>centralization offers a more efficient way to offer government
>services, which means that centralization offers more bang for the
>buck with respect to government services. (This means that for
>instance it's better to have health care financing centralized in the
>federal government as progressives say should be done, as apposed to
>having 50 different states have 50 different systems. Medicare is a
>more successful program than Medicaid since it's much more
>centralized. Conservatives in the Democratic Party will be to blame
>for the coming partial disaster in Obamacare, since they are ones who
>caused that law to have 50 different insurance exchanges in the 50
>different states - progressives wanted a single national insurance
>exchange. Every smart person not brainwashed by conservatism should be
>able to see that it would be better in so many ways to have the
>Another point on the former: With respect to the total area governed
>by the central government of that total area, with more centralized
>government services there is more redistribution from the richer areas
>through that central government to the poorer areas. This goes on
>whether that central government is county government and the
>non-central governments are the city governments, whether that central
>government is the federal government and the non-central governments
>are the state governments. (I've always wondered at the hypocrisy of
>the conservative position on redistribution, since whether we're
>talking about the poorer and usually more conservative cities in a
>county or the poorer and usually more conservative states in the
>country, these poorer and usually more conservative entities are
>usually the beneficiaries in a big way of redistribution through the
>relevant central government.)"
>Oops! You forgot about that, didn't you?
>On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Robert Hansen <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> > What killed teacher's salaries was benefits and all the extras
> that schools have had to fund in the last 3 decades. Unless you
> undo a bunch of legislation, I don't see that changing Paul. And it
> probably gets worse from here.
> > Bob Hansen
> > On Oct 1, 2012, at 6:18 PM, "Paul A. Tanner III" <email@example.com> wrote:
> >> US teachers are overworked and underpaid. Here is some proof:
> >> "Teacher Pay Around the World"
> >> http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/teacher-pay-around-the-world/
> >> Quotes:
> >> "American teachers spend on average 1,080 hours teaching each
> year. Across the O.E.C.D., the average is 794 hours on primary
> education, 709 hours on lower secondary education, and 653 hours on
> upper secondary education general programs.
> >> ...
> >> In the United States, a teacher with 15 years of experience
> makes a salary that is 96 percent of the country's gross domestic
> product per capita. Across the O.E.C.D., a teacher of equivalent
> experience makes 117 percent of G.D.P. per capita. At the high end
> of the scale, in Korea, the average teacher at this level makes a
> full 221 percent of the country's G.D.P. per capita."
> >> Even the hyper-conservative Wall Street Journal has the guts to
> tell the truth on this one:
> >> "Number of the Week: U.S. Teachers' Hours Among World's Longest"
> >> And:
> >> "How much time do teachers spend teaching?"
> >> http://www.oecd.org/education/highereducationandadultlearning/48631419.pdf
> >> Look at chart D4.2. This shows that the number of yearly
> teaching hours of US teachers is roughly 50% greater than the OECD
> average. This is really significant, since the US school year is
> typically shorter. This means therefore that each day, US teachers
> spend vastly more time teaching in the classroom than do teachers
> of other countries, which means that US teachers have vastly less
> time each day while during contracted work hours to do anything
> else such as collaborating with other teachers or preparing
> instruction or other such important things that would involve good teaching.
> >> Look at chart D4.3. This shows that the percentage of working
> time spent teaching for US teachers was greater than a large
> majority of the other countries in the study, and very much larger
> than for some countries: In the neighborhood of *twice as high* as
> Japan and Norway, for instance.
> >> Note: US teachers, although sometimes having shorter contracted
> work time, work much longer hours than teachers of other countries
> while not "on the clock", and so total working time reflects that
> for all the countries. These not "on the clock" hours would be
> hours spent working while away from school on such as grading
> papers, preparing instruction, and calling parents - especially of
> unruly students. (Since the US has a much greater classroom
> disruption problem than these other countries, I'd say that we'd
> find that US teachers have to do this latter much more than
> teachers of other countries, mostly in terms of calling parents of
> unruly students, something US teachers are required to do by their
> bosses, the principals.)
> >> That is, if only contracted time was covered in the definition
> of working time, then the percentage of working hours that were
> teaching hours for the US would probably be off the chart greater
> than almost all the other countries, much greater than the already
> higher measures. This means for instance that instead of just
> roughly twice as high as Norway and Japan, it would be approaching
> roughly three times higher than Norway and Japan.
> >> That is, specifically, let's compare the US to Japan, a country
> that performs on average without adjusting for demographics much
> better than the US and almost the entire world on international tests:
> >> Using the charts in the very first link above, we see that the
> total number of yearly teaching hours of the Japanese teacher is
> only 600 hours per year, while for the US it is roughly 1100,
> almost twice as high. Every school I've worked at had me doing
> roughly 30 teaching hours per week for about 37.5 hours per week
> that I had to be on campus. That's about 75% of contracted time.
> But the charts in the last link say that for the US it's about 60%
> or a bit less - this means that time spent outside the campus is
> included as working time. For Japan it's only in the 30-35% range.
> But this is significant, since their school years are much longer,
> about 50% longer at 243 days compared to the US's 180. So per
> school day, the average Japanese teacher has about 600/243 ~ 2.5
> teaching hours per day while the average US teacher has about
> 1100/180 ~ 6.1 teaching hours per day. (I've read that Japanese
> teachers do not have the same load maxed out each and every day
> like the US teachers!
> > b!
> >> ut are instead like US community college teachers in their
> weakly load, different on different days of the week and much less
> - about half or so - total teaching time per week.)
> >> And we see that after 15 years experience, the salary of the
> Japanese teacher (in PPP) is roughly $49,000 and of the US teacher
> it is $44,000, but as a percentage of per capita GDP (here PPP, not
> nominal), we see that the Japanese teacher gets about 146% but the
> US teacher gets only about 96%.
> >> And so this question:
> >> Why are US teachers overworked and underpaid compared to so many
> of these other countries - including those that measure higher on
> international tests like Japan?
> >> Simple.
> >> Conservatives who vote in the school districts - the vast
> majority of which are in red (Republican dominated) states and red
> congressional districts (meaning the teacher unions in these areas
> just don't have much power after all) have made damn sure through
> their very loud voices that they don't want any of those "lazy bum
> and overpaid" union teachers being "worse slackers than they already are".
> >> Conservatives would be screaming bloody murder if US teachers
> had it as good as Japanese teachers, teaching only 2.5 instead of
> 6.1 hours per school year day and being paid 146% of per-capita PPP
> GDP instead of only 96% of per capita PPP GDP.
> >> (Side note: I can imagine some conservative trying to sell some
> fertilizer like, "I would have no problem with paying lots more
> taxes to finance US teachers having it this good if they got the
> results that Japanese teachers get." My reply would be, "You have
> it backwards - US teachers could get the results that the Japanese
> teachers get only if they the US teachers were not forced to be to
> be sardines stuffed in a can, unable to breathe, suffocating to
> death from teaching loads being way too heavy and from having to
> deal with all those disputing students. That is, do all that to the
> Japanese teachers, make them vastly more overworked and underpaid
> and having to deal with small armies of disrupting students like
> the US teachers, and then watch those Japanese scores on those
> international tests collapse.")