Date: Oct 4, 2012 2:11 AM
Author: Greg Goodknight
Subject: Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid

On 10/03/2012 07:59 AM, Paul Tanner wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Greg Goodknight <> wrote:
>> On 10/02/2012 04:09 PM, Paul Tanner wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Greg Goodknight <> wrote:
>>>> There is that pesky Federal Dept of Ed study released a decade ago that
>>>> found that, after receiving a baccalaureate, the lower the incoming SAT
>>>> score entering college, the higher the probability they are teaching K-12
>>>> ten years after graduation.
>>>> Winnow out the lower 1/3 of the SAT performers (give some leeway and
>>>> alternate assessments for music, art and PE majors) from the teacher and
>>>> administration corps and see what happens.

>>> For teaching hours, time spent in front of the students under the
>>> normal contracted hours, it's only about 620 hours per year in France,
>>> about 600 and 600 for Japan and Finland, and about 550 for Korea. For
>>> the US it's about 1100.
>>> Do the math.

>> You can't fix stupid, Paul.

> That's right, and stupid it is to overwork teachers with respect to
> teaching loads, period.

Not nearly as stupid as it is to hire teachers from the bottom of the
collegiate barrel in the first place

> And it's really stupid to overwork teachers as something they deserve
> for "being stupid" when it could actually be the case that the
> students are hurt even more by overworking "stupid" teachers compared
> to overworking "non-stupid" teachers.

It isn't punishment for being academically weak, Paul, it's an attempt
to get kids to learn while pretending there aren't problems with the
teacher corps, with the problem being, of course, is that, as Will
Rogers said, 'You can't teach what you don't know anymore than you can
come back from where you ain't been."

I've no problem with reducing the workload if we can tighten the
standards for teaching. Delaying or even abolishing tenure, and using
value added assessment techniques to identify weak teachers and
remediate and remove if necessary.

>> While it might do less damage to children were they
>> to spend less time "teaching"

> Well, there it is. You agree that it's stupid to overwork teachers.

>> The Japanese hours are also cooked, since so many of the public school
>> teachers moonlight at the juku

> These are private schools that have nothing to do with how many tax
> dollars public school teachers are paid and have nothing to do with
> what government contracts are with respect to working conditions for
> government employees.

What you don't seem to realize, Paul, is that the teachers in the juku
are largely moonlighting public school teachers. It is part of their
workload, for which they get paid well. So it has everything to do with it.

- -Greg