Date: Oct 11, 2012 7:20 PM Author: Paul A. Tanner III Subject: Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

> Let's start with elementary school, how many hours do teachers teach in Finland and how does it work?

>

Again read what I wrote and cited:

http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=7899043

Two out of the three sources give this following information from the charts:

For the primary school teachers in the US it is about 1080 hours per year on 180 school days per year, about 6 hours per day on average, 30 hours per week school is in session. Being at or close to 30 hours per week of actual time in front of a class is what I keep telling you is the norm for all US public school teachers at all levels of k12 - primary, lower and upper secondary - in terms of the contracts with the school districts.

For the primary school teachers in Finland it is about 680 hours per year on 190 school days per year, about 3.5 hours per day on average, 17.5 hours per week school is in session. For lower and upper secondary school teachers in Finland it is about 600 and 570 hours per year on 190 school days per year, about 3.1 and 3 hours respectively per day on average, 15.5 and 15 hours respectively per week school is in session.

Again I point out that these top performing countries of Japan, Korea, and Finland treat their k12 teachers as the US treats its community college teachers in terms of how many hours per week school is in session that they have to actually be in front of a class

> Here they teach 4-5 hours,

>

I do not believe for one second this 4-5 hours per day thing for the k12 public school teachers of your district. That's only 20-25 hours per week. I have never seen numbers this low anywhere in the US, where I worked or otherwise. it contradicts everything, including the above citations confirming what I'm telling you. You need to try to prove your claim here by actually giving the name of your school district so that I can find out what the contracted teaching hours per week are for the k12 public school teachers in your district. I bet anything that it's at or quite close to 30 hours per week, which means 5.5-6 hours per day average. Again: It's at or close to 30 hours per week for US teachers - that is the norm all over the US.

> the remainder of the 6.5 hours

?

6.5 times 5 means that the contract is only a total of 32.5 hours per week of total working time under contract with the district? You need to name this district to try to prove your claim.

Do I need to yet again go over the numbers? If we have 120 students who each spend 1 hour 5 days per week school is in session in a math class for a total of 5 hours per week in a math class, then we have either 1 teacher taking all 120, meaning what we have in the US, 1 teacher teaching 6 hours per day, 30 hours per week, or we do essentially what these other countries do or what our community college teachers do, 2 teachers each taking 60, each teacher teaching 3 hours per day, 15 hours per week.

>

> On Oct 11, 2012, at 6:00 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:

>

>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>>>

>>> On Oct 11, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>> If I teach 6 hours per day and have 20 students in each one hour

>>> class, then I have 120 total students to deal with. If I teach 3 hours

>>> per day and have 20 students in each one hour class, then I have 60

>>> total students to deal with. The teacher-pupil ratio is the same, but

>>>> one teacher has double the teaching load of the other.

>>>

>>>

>>> So do the kids go to school only 3 hours a day? I guess we are not talking

>>> elementary school, we are talking high school? So in elementary school the

>>> teachers teach the same as us but in high school they only teach 3 hours? So

>>> do teachers share the classrooms? Or do half the classrooms sit empty half

>>> the day and the other half the other half of the day? Is this the vocational

>>> schools as well, or just the high schools? I guess it is possible since the

>>> high schools have screening in place. Once you remove the sports and the

>>> remedial classes, what's left? Do you have a link to some actual high school

>>> schedules that exhibit this? It seems like college hours.

>>

>> ?

>>

>> Please read what I actually wrote in this thread before you reply

>> further, including most especially ALL of what I cited and linked to.

>> It gives you the information for high school, middle school, and

>> elementary school, and for overall averages. I already said that this

>> is not about the number of hours that a student spends per year or per

>> week while school is in session in front of a teacher, but it is about

>> the number of hours that a teacher per year and or per week while

>> school is in session spends in front of a class.

>>

>> Again: Please do the math based on what I cited.

>>

>> To reply to this above of yours specifically, for each week school is

>> in session, using rounded off numbers that are close to the actual

>> numbers so as to show what is going on most clearly:

>>

>> For these three top-performing countries in question Korea, Finland,

>> and Japan, and for US community college teachers, we have something

>> like this: Two teachers teaching a total of 120 students means 60

>> students per teacher - 2 teachers each teaching 3 hours per day, 15

>> hours per week. The students each spend 6 hours per day in front of a

>> teacher. The student/teacher ratio PER CLASS is 20/1.

>>

>> Compare that to what we see in the US at k12, where we have something

>> like this: One teacher teaching a total of 120 students means 120

>> students per teacher - 1 teacher teaching 6 hours per day, 30 hours

>> per week. The students each spend 6 hours per day in front of a

>> teacher. The student/teacher ratio PER CLASS is 20/1.

>>

>> Why so many people keep confusing the student/teacher ratio *per

>> class* and the student/teacher ratio *in terms of total number of

>> students in all classes put together that a single teacher has to deal

>> with* is beyond me.

>>

>> I reiterate everything I said in my last post in this thread:

>>

>> http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=7904464