Date: Feb 5, 2013 3:33 AM
Author: JT
Subject: Re: Which naturals better?
On 5 Feb, 09:04, Virgil <vir...@ligriv.com> wrote:

> In article

> <35d3dbda-612a-4ce8-ba5d-935295170...@h11g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,

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> JT <jonas.thornv...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On 4 Feb, 11:02, Frederick Williams <freddywilli...@btinternet.com>

> > wrote:

> > > JT wrote:

>

> > > > Building new natural numbers without zero using NyaN, in any base,

> > > > [...]

>

> > > You seem to confuse numbers and digits. Both of these are true:

> > > There is a number zero.

> > > Numbers can be symbolized without the digit zero.

>

> > > --

> > > When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by

> > > this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

> > > Jonathan Swift: Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting

>

> > No there is no zero in my list of naturals, in my list is each natural

> > number a discrete ***items***, ***entity*** with a magnitude.

>

> Zero is a perfectly good "magnitude", and in ever more set theories,

> zero is a perfectly good natural number.

>

> So how can you have an arithmetic of natural numbers which does not

> allow a numeral representing the first of them??

> --

You do not listen to what i say each natural (not zero) is an entity

with a range if they had no range you could not divide and make

fractions not partition. You can not partition zero it do not have a

range of a natural you can not count zero into the set. Natural

numbers is just sets of arranging an amount of single naturals, they

all have the same magnitude when you say 7 it is an identity for set

(1,1,1,1,1,1,1) now you can say that is (7) but the seven have

members. Each natural identity like 7 is a set of single=1 naturals

with magnitude and zero do not belong to that set.

If you empty the set of (7) by picking out a single item there is no

object zero. And when you count in a single natural first natural

entity is 1 second 2.

There is a language gap here for me a natural is a single 1 and 7

seven is a set of seven members with single ones. So what would like

me to call the one that make up your naturals. I guess in math 7 is a

natural, to me it is an identity used for (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) this set is

countable. The set of (7) is based on the assumption of

(1,1,1,1,1,1,1) i am not sure what mathematicians mean by an identity,

but it seem to me like 7 incorporates the hidden assumption of

1+1+1+1+1+1+1 and thus all natural numbers except for 1 is identities.