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Topic: [math-learn] Student Evaluations of Teaching Are Not Valid Gauges of Teaching
Performance - Yet Again!

Replies: 38   Last Post: Jul 13, 2012 4:54 PM

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Ed Wall

Posts: 837
Registered: 12/3/04
Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Posted: Jul 4, 2012 8:39 PM
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I definitely agree that with Jerry about students learning much from hearing one another talk (and learning comparatively little from hearing me talk - smile).

The business about boardwork may be a little more complex. It seems to depend a bit on the dynamics of the class. I've certainly seen classrooms where going to the board is just part of the discussion and students, while they may ask, assume they have as much access as the teacher. It is a place to work through ideas and puzzlements. In some cases having multiple students at the board can be counterproductive and frustrating for a student.

I sort of think about it this way. If a person and I were discussing a problem and we had a board to share, it would be give and take. Often a student will say to me something like 'what about' or 'I see it this way' and I will step back becoming part of the onlookers and hand them the chalk/marker. I'm not arguing against multiple students at once, but I'm saying that being by oneself need not be scary and is part of being a learner.

Ed Wall

On Jul 4, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Kathleen Offenholley wrote:

> I agree, Jerome. I should have said that it's board work all by themselves, in front of the whole class, that scares them. But in groups or in pairs, or even singly if they volunteer to come up, they have fun and learn a lot.
>
> Kathleen Offenholley
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Jerome Epstein <jerepst@att.net> wrote:
>

>> I have always handled going over homework assignments by having students
>> present solutions on the board, typically 6 at once, each with a slice
>> of blackboard (or white these days), then using the solution they
>> present to generate discussion. I believe with all my heart that most of
>> the learning takes place in this way, and that next to nothing is
>> learned from listening to me talk.
>>
>> It /never /takes longer than one class for students to be fully
>> comfortable with putting a solution on the board. It quickly creates
>> much more preparedness and more attempting of homework, and more
>> comprehension. In my experience, it is only occasional other faculty who
>> worry aout the students being uncomfortable with putting a solution on
>> the board. I emphasize that I do not have one student up there alone at
>> a time, and they are immediately aware that everyone will be asked to
>> do this.
>>
>> I recommend it highly, and am confident that most of the real learning
>> takes place in these sessions when students are presenting solutions to
>> ot her students and asked to explain things in response to questions. I
>> became convinced many years ago that students learn very, very little
>> from listening to me talk, and I think real experimental data bears this
>> out.
>>
>> Jerry E
>>
>> On 7/4/2012 6:52 PM, kathleen Offenholley wrote:

>>>
>>> In my math for elementary education class, I have students begin by
>>> writing about a good and a bad math experience they have had. the bad
>>> one sometimes involves timed tests, and often involves going up to the
>>> board to show work. in front of the class.
>>>
>>> Mindful of this, I have my remedial students do practice quizzes
>>> ("fake" quizzes) that the do not show me, before the class in which
>>> they do the real quiz, which is not timed.
>>>
>>> I have a learning disability which I hid well, since I was very smart.
>>> But timed tests always brought out the worst of it, since anxiety
>>> makes me switch/reverse things more than usual. I often think about
>>> all the undiagnosed learning disabilities my students may have.
>>>
>>> And I agree with I think it was, Zev (?) that there is a point on a
>>> test or quiz when the students are not doing any better, they are just
>>> sitting there with the same completely wrong answers, That's when I
>>> usually stop them and collect it. :-) I usually wait until 5 to 15
>>> minutes after the slowest A student is done, and I look around to see
>>> where the rest of them are. But I think all m students benefit from a
>>> lack of sense of pressure.
>>>
>>> Kathleen Offenholley
>>> BMCC, NYC
>>>
>>> From: Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu <mailto:ewall%40umich.edu>>
>>> To: math-learn@yahoogroups.com <mailto:math-learn%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 4, 2012, at 5:54 PM, John Clement wrote:
>>>

>>>> So the students who have less than 2 wrong are shaming those who
>>> have more
>>>> wrong. That can amount to extreme social pressure. What about
>>> students who
>>>> cheat and raise their hands even though they have many wrong? I
>>> don't know
>>>> what teachers did with the timed tests they collected when I was
>>> growing up,
>>>> because they didn't have computers so they couldn't record every grade.
>>>>
>>>> Low pressure timed tests would only be used for self assessment and

>>> scores
>>>> would not be made known to other students, and possibly only to the
>>> teacher.
>>>> I didn't usually pay that much attention to such things as the
>>> little gold
>>>> stickers put on the charts, but I knew that the teachers would not
>>> approve
>>>> of the way I did arithmetic by developing strategies for counting
>>> because I
>>>> couldn't remember the facts. I did it quickly enough to get through.
>>> Those
>>>> who have not suffered problem because of LD can't understand what you go
>>>> through, and how you desperately hide the problems. So ultimately my
>>>> opposition to timed tests comes from my personal experience plus

>>> that of my
>>>> daughter who was made miserable by some teachers. I have seen that this
>>>> sort of thing goes on whether it is mental or physical beatings. I knew
>>>> perfectly well that when I was in the turtles reading group that it

>>> meant I
>>>> was a slow reader, but it didn't seem to bother me as I recall.
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately my parents never put pressure on me, and they did what they
>>>> could, so I was not aware that I was having difficulties. After I

>>> developed
>>>> coping strategies I was able to compensate for the deficiencies, but
>>> a lot
>>>> of students can't do that.
>>>>

>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> I use that bit by LaVoie in a mathematics methods course I teach to
>>> make a somewhat similar point. However to be fair, often I hear well
>>> meaning people use those words. LaVoie was lucky that he got called on
>>> this and listened. Of course, some people never get called. Of course,
>>> some people choose not to listen and that is a very different issue. I
>>> admit to not listening carefully several times before I finally
>>> started to pay attention (smile). Listening carefully and
>>> thoughtfully, by the way, is not equivalent to agreeing.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>

>>>> Until you are in the position that I was in where my daughter and
>>> wife were
>>>> literally crying almost every day, you have NO RIGHT to use such sarcasm
>>>> about an important issue. You DO NOT UNDERSTAND, and you are not

>>> capable of
>>>> understanding. Richard LaVoie who is an expert in LD was hit by this
>>>> revelation that he really couldn't understand what it was like to be LD
>>>> after a student got mad at him when he said "I understand".
>>>>
>>>> John M. Clement
>>>> Houston, TX
>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/4/2012 12:27 PM, John Clement wrote:

>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think most teachers use it as a beating because such

>>>>> tests are given
>>>>>> frequently and with grades attached. If they are effective
>>>>> under low
>>>>>> stress
>>>>>> situations that would be with no grades and no stars on

>>>>> little boards. In
>>>>>> Finland as I recall grading is forbiden in the lower
>>>>> grades. Beatings may
>>>>>> make galley slaves work a little harder, but animal
>>>>> training is routinely
>>>>>> done with rewards rather than punishments because they work
>>>>> much better.
>>>>>> The bad effects of punishments are well known from
>>>>> behaviorist psychology.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And I think you have no basis for your "thinking" of what "most"
>>>>> teachers do, yet you immediately proceed use that baseless
>>>>> assumption to
>>>>> build elaborate theses about beatings, slaves, animal training, and
>>>>> other hobgoblins of feverish minds.
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience is of teachers frequently (weekly or bi-weekly)
>>>>> assigning
>>>>> such tests during certain periods in early grades when arithmetic
>>>>> fluency is developed and most often have students self-score,
>>>>> sometimes
>>>>> using raised hands to assess how many correct/wrong answer
>>>>> each got ("if
>>>>> your have less than 2 wrongs, raise your hand ..."). Once in
>>>>> a blue moon
>>>>> the teacher will actually collect and score for his/her own insight
>>>>> where the class stands. I have never seen such assignment
>>>>> graded in the
>>>>> sense that it has any direct effect on students final grade.
>>>>> But, then,
>>>>> as opposed to the gentleman from Houston I have no idea of
>>>>> what "most"
>>>>> teachers do ... I just assume that they have at least some
>>>>> semblance of
>>>>> common sense.
>>>>>

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>

>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>




Date Subject Author
6/24/12
Read [math-learn] Student Evaluations of Teaching Are Not Valid Gauges of Teaching
Performance - Yet Again!
Richard Hake
7/3/12
Read [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/3/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/3/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/3/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Zeev Wurman
7/3/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/5/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/12/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Clyde Greeno @ MALEI
7/12/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Robert Hansen
7/13/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
John Clement
7/13/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Robert Hansen
7/13/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Robert Hansen
7/13/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
John Clement
7/13/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Rex Boggs
7/13/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Robert Hansen
7/13/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety > Timed Learning.
Robert Hansen
7/13/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
> Timed Learning.
Zeev Wurman
7/3/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
MATH4FOBIX@aol.com
7/3/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Zeev Wurman
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Ed Wall
7/4/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Zeev Wurman
7/4/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Ed Wall
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
kathleen Offenholley
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Jerry Epstein
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
kathleen Offenholley
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Ed Wall
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Zeev Wurman
7/4/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/5/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/5/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Jerry Epstein
7/5/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/5/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/5/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/5/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/6/12
Read RE: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
John Clement
7/6/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Robert Hansen
7/5/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Timed Tests and the Development of Math Anxiety
Zeev Wurman

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