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Topic: Discussion List Etiquette - Response to Crabtree
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Richard Hake

Posts: 1,216
From: Woodland Hills, CA 91367
Registered: 12/4/04
Discussion List Etiquette - Response to Crabtree
Posted: Jan 20, 2013 7:35 PM
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Veteran Math-Teach poster Jonathan Crabtree <http://bit.ly/WjHjUG>
posted a comment on my entry "Do We Learn All the Math We Need For
Ordinary Life Before 5th Grade? at <http://bit.ly/RQkucu> on my blog
"Hake'sEdStuff." Unfortunately Crabtree's comment is misleading,
confused, and ill informed.

Crabtree states [my insert at ". . . . [[insert]]. . . ."]:

"Regarding your etiquette on copying content and your defence on Math
Forum. . . . [["Discussion List Etiquette" (Hake, 2013) posted on
Math-Teach and EDDRA2]]. . . . . : 'No, I did not ask permission to
share the anecdote (from a closed discussion forum) with Math-Teach
and other lists, nor do I think it's necessary to ask permission.'
(Note: my parentheses.)Some may applaud you for your 'logic' as it
may encourage them to continue making copies of and redistributing
copyrighted content without permission. I don't."

Crabtree fails to mention that he is quoting my response to Michael
Paul Goldberg's (2013) post "Re: Do We Learn All the Math We Need For
Ordinary Life Before 5th Grade?" in which Goldberg wrote [my inserts
at ". . . . [[insert]]. . . ."; my CAPS]:

"Frankly, though, I do wonder about Richard Hake's decision to share
an anecdote from a list that is not open to the public. . . .[[EDDRA2
with CLOSED archives at <http://yhoo.it/iNTxrH>]]. . . . , with
folks in this particular venue . . . .[[Math-Teach with OPEN archives
at <http://bit.ly/eOTrs1>]], given the predictable comments it has
evoked. We now have a few of the usual snakes and vipers commenting
on Susan Ohanian, a very bright person indeed. I think he has done
her a serious disservice, PARTICULARLY IF HE DIDN'T REQUEST
PERMISSION BEFOREHAND."

Therefore my statement "No, I did not ask permission to share the
anecdote with Math-Teach and other lists, nor do I think it's
necessary to ask permission" was obviously meant to mean "No, I did
not ask permission to share the anecdote with Math-Teach and other
lists, nor do I think it's necessary to ask permission FROM SUSAN
OHANIAN (**not** from the EDDRA2 list.)

Crabtree then goes on to state: "You will often find a copyright
notice at the bottom of forums. All content posted on math forum, for
example, is copyrighted to the Drexel University."

I can find no such stricture at MathForum. In fact at the latter's
"Privacy Policy" <http://bit.ly/vhidk7> it's stated (my CAPS):
"PUBLIC FORUMS: This site makes mailing lists, web discussion forums,
live chats (vmt) and message boards available to its users. Please
remember that ANY INFORMATION THAT IS DISCLOSED IN THESE AREAS
BECOMES PUBLIC, and that you should exercise caution when deciding to
disclose your personal information."

The above privacy policy statement is consistent with the statement
from "In Defense of Crossposting [Hake (2005a)] that I quoted in Hake
(2013)[bracketed by "HHHHH. . . . "]:

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
A few of the anti-cross-posting (ACP) arguments that I have seen,
followed by my pro-cross-posting (PCP) responses are as follows:

***************************
ACP1. A poster to list DL-A may not want her/his comments spread to
other lists DL-B,C,D,. . . by means of a cross-poster to
DL-A,B,C,D,. . ..

PCP1. In my opinion:

(a) MATERIAL PLACED ON THE WEB IS AUTOMATICALLY IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
. . . . . [[my CAPS on 20 Jan 2013]]. . . . , and therefore subject
to propagation throughout the internet and beyond - as a visit to
Google <http://www.google.com/> will verify.

(b) Confidential, restricted, or sensitive information should, in my
opinion, NEVER be placed on the web.

(c) If DL-A subscribers think their posts to DL-A are so problematic
that will not bare the scrutiny of subscribers to DL-B,C,D. . .then
they might be well advised to avoid posting even to DL-A.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . .
***************************
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


Crabtree ends his diatribe with "I respectfully request you
reconsider your public stance on the matter of breaching both
copyright and the very standards people expect of academics."

Unfortunately Crabtree, an Australian, appears to be oblivious of the
"Fair Use" provision of U.S. Copyright law, Title 17 of section 107.
"Fair Use" applies since my post of the Ohanian anecdote was
"distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving the included information for research and
educational purposes." For more information go to the Cornell
University Law School sites <http://bit.ly/eNseEp> and
<http://bit.ly/qyWm2Y>.

As an aside, Susan Ohanian herself at <http://www.susanohanian.org/>
has for many years been freely transmitting copyrighted material
under the protection of the "Fair Use" provision of U.S. Copyright
law and, as far as I know, has never been threatened with lawsuits.

Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
Links to Articles: <http://bit.ly/a6M5y0>
Links to Socratic Dialogue Inducing (SDI) Labs: <http://bit.ly/9nGd3M>
Academia: <http://bit.ly/a8ixxm>
Blog: <http://bit.ly/9yGsXh>
GooglePlus: <http://bit.ly/KwZ6mE>
Twitter: <http://bit.ly/juvd52>

REFERENCES [All URL's shortened by <http://bit.ly/> and accessed on
20 Jan 2013.]
Goldenberg, M.P. 2013. "Re: Do We Learn All the Math We Need For
Ordinary Life Before 5th Grade?" online on the OPEN! Math-Teach
archives at <http://bit.ly/V8bB0I>. Post of 15 Jan 9:54 PM (the
MathForum fails so specify the time zone).

Hake, R.R. 2005a. "In Defense of Cross Posting," online on the OPEN!
AERA-L archives at <http://bit.ly/iZhS2i> Post of 24 Jul 2005 to
AERA-L and various other discussion lists. See also Hake (2005b,
2010).

Hake, R.R. 2005b. "Cross-Posting - Synergistic or Sinful?" online on
the OPEN! AERA-L archives at <http://bit.ly/oaRDYa>. Post of 1 Nov
2005 08:37:12-0800 to AERA-L and ITForum.

Hake, R.R. 2013. "Discussion List Etiquette (was Do We Learn All the
Math We Need . . . .)", online on the OPEN Math-Teach archives at
<http://bit.ly/11CinNN>. Post of 16 Jan 2013 11:29 AM to EDDRA2 and
Math-Teach,



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