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Topic: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Replies: 84   Last Post: Jun 14, 2013 12:33 AM

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Greg Goodknight

Posts: 1,197
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Posted: May 9, 2013 2:37 AM
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On 05/08/2013 09:16 PM, kirby urner wrote
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Greg Goodknight <good@nccn.net> wrote:
>> On 05/07/2013 05:02 PM, kirby urner wrote:
>>> Wayne's response is predictable: that this isn't math and
>>> testing scores suffer.

>>
>> What he actually wrote was "Let's see those mathematics competency
>> tests."
>> If it meets or exceeds the results of a competently taught, recognizable
>> math class, let's embrace it as math.
>>
>> Or in other words, if it's as effective, there should be an objective
>> way to
>> show its effectiveness, like a nationally normed test. It isn't
>> perfect, but
>> it's better than a puff piece in the local paper. Until shown to be
>> effective, and not just as a remedial tool, let's not call it "math".
>>

> Testing is integral. Performance gets reviewed. True in scouting as
> well. You get badges, like grades in some ways.



The issue is whether the testing, whether integral or not, is revealing
the same information for the new way as for the old.

A teacher in the tank for hands-on approaches reporting how great the
kids are doing isn't the same. The plural of anecdote is not objective
data.


>
> In the school where I teach, you keep failing until you pass but that
> can take variable time and there's no cohort moving through. You're
> more or less on your own, and if you have a busy life, it's OK to lag
> back. You move forward when you do. Correspondence schools gave rise
> to this pattern, while computers sped it up like crazy.
>

>>> Lets call that gross and fine motor skills training,
>>
>> Those were traditionally called "woodshop" and "home ec". At my
>> junior high,
>> there was also metal shop, and electric shop. None of those classes,
>> despite
>> requiring some below grade level math to be competent, were called math.
>>

> Yes, that's how they'd carved the turkey back then. Math was for
> brains and shop was for "below grade level". The ethnic stereotypes
> abound.


NO, Kirby. Shop at my school was for *everyone*, including the middle
class white kids. The math in the shops was below grade level because
shop in the 8th grade didn't (and doesn't) require much math.




>
> Lets say the girl scouts are out placing sensors where others have
> gone before and saved coordinates (lat / long). Not only is GPS
> involved, but what the sensors measure, how readings go through a
> pipeline ending in visualizations (matplotlib). Water and air
> quality. Environmental models (half life, decay, rates of change,
> exponentials).
>
> How deep is their math and physics? Depends what you measure.
>
> Does proficiency include some ability to handle tools and build
> things? Not in every school, no.
>

>> Orienteering is likewise not math.
>>

> Playing chess is not math, and yet mathematicians study chess.

Yes, they do. Do they call it math, or do they call it chess?

I recall in the college symphony that math, physics and engineering
majors dominated the percussion and brass sections. We called it
"music", not math, despite the mathematical relationships specified by
the musical notations, yet another bit of technology that was developed
over the last millennium.

Really, Kirby, let's call the spade a spade. Math isn't orienteering,
chess, music or woodshop.

-Greg

> Or by
> some liberal definitions, playing chess is a form of math play,
> likewise Go (the game), but where do we draw the line? Are people in
> casinos "doing math"? "Casino Math" is real enough (probability,
> permutations):
>
> http://wikieducator.org/Casino_Math
>
>

>> All of the above classes also require some below grade level language
>> skills, listening, speaking, reading and comprehension, and probably
>> contain
>> more language than math. Why not call them English?
>>

> High school literature should include traversing some 20th century
> lit, e.g. Ezra Pound, Hemingway. Discuss their different dealings
> with Fascism as a concept (Hemingway in Spain, Pound in Italy).
> Readings from 'The Pound Era' by Hugh Kenner, a James Joyce scholar,
> connects us to Bucky Fuller and those dots (Kenner wrote 'Bucky', a
> bio, and also 'Geodesic Math and How to Use It').
>
> So yes, if we start cranking out the icosahedral numbers 1, 12, 42,
> 92... in World Languages class (Unicode, ASCII...), using a computer
> language (OCAML), that won't have to be considered math nor run by the
> math department teachers for approval. It's Lit.
>

>> -Greg
>>
>> PS I recall being energized by metalshop (students did everything but
>> pour
>> molten aluminum into the sandcasting molds, it was very cool) and
>> electric
>> shop in the 8th grade. Great stuff. Very probably helped me on the path
>> towards physics and engineering. Shop classes are sadly not given the
>> respect they deserve.
>>

> Sadly. Home Ec either, which needs to merge more with Urban Planning
> and Ecology. Where is the food coming from, what lifestyles does it
> support, how does a restaurant work, a grocery store? Inventory.
> Trucking. These are all Supermarket Math:
>
> http://wikieducator.org/Supermarket_Math
>
> Kirby
>








On 05/08/2013 09:16 PM, kirby urner wrote:
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Greg Goodknight <good@nccn.net
> <mailto:good@nccn.net>> wrote:

> > On 05/07/2013 05:02 PM, kirby urner wrote:
> >>
> >> Wayne's response is predictable: that this isn't math and
> >> testing scores suffer.

> >
> >
> > What he actually wrote was "Let's see those mathematics competency

> tests."
> > If it meets or exceeds the results of a competently taught, recognizable
> > math class, let's embrace it as math.
> >
> > Or in other words, if it's as effective, there should be an

> objective way to
> > show its effectiveness, like a nationally normed test. It isn't
> perfect, but
> > it's better than a puff piece in the local paper. Until shown to be
> > effective, and not just as a remedial tool, let's not call it "math".
> >

>
> Testing is integral. Performance gets reviewed. True in scouting as
> well. You get badges, like grades in some ways.
>
> In the school where I teach, you keep failing until you pass but that
> can take variable time and there's no cohort moving through. You're
> more or less on your own, and if you have a busy life, it's OK to lag
> back. You move forward when you do. Correspondence schools gave rise
> to this pattern, while computers sped it up like crazy.
>

> >>
> >> Lets call that gross and fine motor skills training,

> >
> >
> > Those were traditionally called "woodshop" and "home ec". At my

> junior high,
> > there was also metal shop, and electric shop. None of those classes,
> despite
> > requiring some below grade level math to be competent, were called math.
> >

>
> Yes, that's how they'd carved the turkey back then. Math was for
> brains and shop was for "below grade level". The ethnic stereotypes
> abound.
>
> Lets say the girl scouts are out placing sensors where others have
> gone before and saved coordinates (lat / long). Not only is GPS
> involved, but what the sensors measure, how readings go through a
> pipeline ending in visualizations (matplotlib). Water and air
> quality. Environmental models (half life, decay, rates of change,
> exponentials).
>
> How deep is their math and physics? Depends what you measure.
>
> Does proficiency include some ability to handle tools and build
> things? Not in every school, no.
>

> >
> > Orienteering is likewise not math.
> >

>
> Playing chess is not math, and yet mathematicians study chess. Or by
> some liberal definitions, playing chess is a form of math play,
> likewise Go (the game), but where do we draw the line? Are people in
> casinos "doing math"? "Casino Math" is real enough (probability,
> permutations):
>
> http://wikieducator.org/Casino_Math
>
>

> > All of the above classes also require some below grade level language
> > skills, listening, speaking, reading and comprehension, and probably

> contain
> > more language than math. Why not call them English?
> >

>
> High school literature should include traversing some 20th century
> lit, e.g. Ezra Pound, Hemingway. Discuss their different dealings
> with Fascism as a concept (Hemingway in Spain, Pound in Italy).
> Readings from 'The Pound Era' by Hugh Kenner, a James Joyce scholar,
> connects us to Bucky Fuller and those dots (Kenner wrote 'Bucky', a
> bio, and also 'Geodesic Math and How to Use It').
>
> So yes, if we start cranking out the icosahedral numbers 1, 12, 42,
> 92... in World Languages class (Unicode, ASCII...), using a computer
> language (OCAML), that won't have to be considered math nor run by the
> math department teachers for approval. It's Lit.
>

> > -Greg
> >
> > PS I recall being energized by metalshop (students did everything

> but pour
> > molten aluminum into the sandcasting molds, it was very cool) and
> electric
> > shop in the 8th grade. Great stuff. Very probably helped me on the path
> > towards physics and engineering. Shop classes are sadly not given the
> > respect they deserve.
> >

>
> Sadly. Home Ec either, which needs to merge more with Urban Planning
> and Ecology. Where is the food coming from, what lifestyles does it
> support, how does a restaurant work, a grocery store? Inventory.
> Trucking. These are all Supermarket Math:
>
> http://wikieducator.org/Supermarket_Math
>
>
> Kirby
>




Date Subject Author
5/4/13
Read When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Jerry P. Becker
5/4/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/7/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/8/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Greg Goodknight
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Greg Goodknight
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Greg Goodknight
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Greg Goodknight
5/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Greg Goodknight
5/11/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/12/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/18/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/18/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Anna Roys
5/19/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/20/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/22/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/24/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Richard Strausz
5/24/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/24/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/25/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/25/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Anna Roys
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/25/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Richard Strausz
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Louis Talman
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/28/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Louis Talman
5/28/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Louis Talman
5/29/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/30/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/31/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/30/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Louis Talman
5/29/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/30/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Louis Talman
5/30/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/30/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/31/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/31/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/31/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Anna Roys
6/2/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/3/13
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Robert Hansen
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/4/13
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Robert Hansen
6/4/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/4/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/3/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Richard Strausz
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/27/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Richard Strausz
5/28/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/29/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
5/29/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
5/29/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Richard Strausz
5/29/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
5/30/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Wayne Bishop
6/8/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
GS Chandy
6/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
GS Chandy
6/9/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
GS Chandy
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/11/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
kirby urner
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/10/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Louis Talman
6/12/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
GS Chandy
6/12/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
Robert Hansen
6/13/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
GS Chandy
6/14/13
Read Re: When math makes sense - w/ cooking, consruction
GS Chandy

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