The Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by NCTM or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » sci.math.* » sci.math

Topic: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Replies: 25   Last Post: Sep 8, 2017 3:00 AM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
Mike Terry

Posts: 763
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 6:37 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On 06/09/2017 20:36, pamela wrote:
> On 22:03 5 Sep 2017, Markus Klyver wrote:
>

>> Den tisdag 5 september 2017 kl. 18:56:58 UTC+2 skrev Mike Terry:
>>> On 05/09/2017 17:30, Markus Klyver wrote:
>>>> Den torsdag 24 augusti 2017 kl. 19:54:31 UTC+2 skrev Peter
>>>> Percival:

>>>>> pamela wrote:
>>>>>> I was watching a drama on the telly where a teacher
>>>>>> explains to his class that the number PI goes on for ever
>>>>>> and never repeats itself. That seems true enough for
>>>>>> irrationals like PI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He went on to claim that this means

>>>>>
>>>>> No it doesn't. What you say next is so if pi is normal base
>>>>> 10 (supposing the the digits of pi and various integers
>>>>> referred to are base 10). Mere irrationality won't do. See
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number.
>>>>>

>>>>>> all other numbers (presumably he means integers) will
>>>>>> appear somewhere in the sequence of digits of PI. So my
>>>>>> phone number or the works of Shakespeare (represented as
>>>>>> digits) would be in PI somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this true or is it dramatic licence?

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Do, as a concession to my poor wits, Lord Darlington,
>>>>> just explain to me what you really mean. I think I had
>>>>> better not, Duchess. Nowadays to be intelligible is to be
>>>>> found out. -- Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

>>>>
>>>> In a normal number, any finite sequence of digits will
>>>> appearc almost s urely, yes. We don't know if Ï? is normal,
>>>> but being a normal number isn't that special for a real
>>>> number at all. Almost all real numbers are normal, and so
>>>> "everything is contained" in almost all real numbers.
>>>>
>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.math/ivNvUw_08Ew
>>>>

>>>
>>> In a normal number, any finite sequence of digits DOES APPEAR.
>>> Above, you add the expression "almost surely" which is not
>>> required, and will probably mislead some readers.
>>>
>>> Regards, Mike.

>>
>> Almost surely mean the probability is 1.

>
> Doesn't it mean the probability is almost 1?
>


No, it means the probability is 1. It has a technical meaning in
probability theory. I'll give you an example...

A man (or woman) with £5 goes into a casino, and sits down at the
roulette table to play the following customised game: on each spin, £1
is staked on the number 3. If number 3 comes up, the gambler wins £1
(plus gets his/her stake back) otherwise the stake is lost. The
man/woman plays this repeatedly. [OK, obviously this is a crooked
casino, and the naive gambler doesn't realise he/she is being ripped
off! We don't expect this game to last very long...]

We wonder - assuming the game has no time limit so it is played over and
over indefinitely, will the gambler run out of money? (I.e. will the
gambler's account, which started at £5, and each spin of the wheel goes
up or down by £1, go all the way down to £0?)

Mathematically this is an example of a (biased) random walk, and it's
fairly clear to us that the gambler is not going to last very long :(
Probability theory can be used to analyse the situation, and
unsurprisingly the conclusion turns out to be that the probability of
the gambler losing all his/her stake is 1.

Note that the probability is not 0.9, or 0.999 or "almost 1". If we
altered things so the game only had a fixed number of spins, say 100 or
even 1000000 spins, then there would be a (small) non-zero probability
that the gambler survives without going bust. But with an effectively
infinite sequence of spins, the probability of the gambler going bust is
1. (Actually this is all quite complicated when you get fully into it,
so I won't even try to justify why this is the case, but at least it
should seem plausible to you...)

So for this game, Probability (gambler goes bust) = 1

But.... this is NOT saying that there is NO (infinite) sequence of spin
outcomes where the gambler avoids going bust. Far from it! For
example, the number 3 comes up on the 1st spin, then again on the second
spin, and just keeps on coming up every spin. And there are infinitely
many basically similar (unlikely) variations. It's just that when we
mathematically work out the probability of ANY of the "surviving
outcomes" occuring, the probability is zero.

So there is a bit of a language problem here - mathematically we don't
want to say "there's no way the gambler can avoid going bust" or
similar, because in fact there do exist outcomes where he/she does so.
Instead, for situations where even the conglomeration of all these
"survival" outcomes looked at together still only has aprobability of
zero, mathematicians say "the gambler goes bust ALMOST SURELY". (Or
"almost certainly" or similar.)

So that's the technical way the phrase "almost surely" is used.

In the case of a "normal" number, the definition of "normal" ensures
that its decimal digits include any specific digit, e.g. "7" infinitely
often. I.e. if it didn't, the number wouldn't qualify to be called a
normal number. No probability involved here, so we wouldn't say that
"7" occurs in the numbers decimal expansion "almost surely".

(Also with regard to what others have said regarding your original
question, bear in mind that with all this talk of "normal" numbers,
nobody has so far proved that Pi is in fact normal! :) Although, this
claim seems highly plausible to the point where we would be suspicious
if someone claimed to have proven the opposite...)

Hope this wasn't too long for you,
Mike.





















Date Subject Author
8/24/17
Read PI: infinite and contains everything?
Jeremie
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Peter Percival
8/25/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
jsavard@ecn.ab.ca
8/25/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Jeremie
8/25/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Rolazaro Azeveires
8/26/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
jsavard@ecn.ab.ca
9/5/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Markus Klyver
9/5/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Mike Terry
9/5/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Markus Klyver
9/5/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Mike Terry
9/6/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Markus Klyver
9/6/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Mike Terry
9/6/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Markus Klyver
9/6/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Mike Terry
9/8/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Markus Klyver
9/6/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Jeremie
9/6/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
Mike Terry
9/7/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
robersi
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
FromTheRafters
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
conway
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
quasi
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
mathman1
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
FromTheRafters
8/24/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
conway
8/25/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
mathman1
8/25/17
Read Re: PI: infinite and contains everything?
conway

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© The Math Forum at NCTM 1994-2017. All Rights Reserved.