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Topic: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Replies: 66   Last Post: Sep 28, 2017 11:46 AM

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David Bernier

Posts: 3,884
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Posted: Sep 28, 2017 11:46 AM
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On 09/15/2017 06:38 PM, Shobe, Martin wrote:
> On 9/15/2017 7:47 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> Shobe, Martin was thinking very hard :
>>> On 9/14/2017 5:33 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> After serious thinking zelos.malum@outlook.com wrote :
>>>>> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 9:01:06 PM UTC+2, David Petry wrote:
>>>>>> Recently, Jim Burns showed us a quote from John Baez:
>>>>>> "mathematicians crave consensus".  Let me comment on that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a quote from Michael Crichton (famous American writer):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of
>>>>>> scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the
>>>>>> matter is already settled... the work of science has nothing
>>>>>> whatever to do with consensus... The greatest scientists in
>>>>>> history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.
>>>>>> There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it
>>>>>> isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, Crichton is talking about science, not mathematics.
>>>>>> But, as I've been arguing for a long time now, it's undeniable
>>>>>> that there is such a thing as scientific mathematics--the
>>>>>> mathematics that is relevant to science--and Crichton's remarks
>>>>>> definitely do apply to that kind of mathematics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So why do "mathematicians crave consensus"?  Pure mathematicians
>>>>>> have turned mathematics into an art form, and there is no other
>>>>>> criterion for determining the worth of art, than consensus.

>>>>>
>>>>> Mathematics isn't science so whats the fucking issue?

>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_science

>>>
>>> For quite a few people, "science" is limited to what that article
>>> calls "natural science" and "social science" (i.e. it needs to use
>>> something akin to the scientific method). By that definition, formal
>>> science isn't science in spite of the name.
>>>
>>> Martin Shobe

>>
>> Yes, I agree, but that's a bit like "A rose by any other name would
>> not be a rose any more" isn't it? 'Quite a few people' looks like a
>> logical fallacy of 'Appeal to Numbers' if your intention had been to
>> argue rather than just to inform. I take it as informational though.

>
> Since we are discussing definitions of natural languages, what "quite a
> few people" think a word means is a relevant piece of information. This
> isn't the "Appeal to Numbers" fallacy because meanings in natural
> languages are set by use.
>

>>
>> I can add it to my collection:
>>
>> A Hippopotamus [is/is not] an amphibian.
>> A watermelon [is/is not] a melon.
>> A strawberry [is/is not] a fruit.
>> A tomato [is/is not] a fruit.
>> A tomato [is/is not] a vegetable.
>>
>> There are more which I can't recall offhand. The point being that we
>> need to use the same definitions for things in order to have
>> meaningful discussions about them. It would be a shame to argue for
>> decades about something only to find that we were using different
>> definitions for things.
>>
>> My perhaps overly general definition for science is more along the
>> lines of making observations and recording them so that future work
>> can expand on previous work.

>
> Possibly. Of course, the most important person's definition of science
> for this particular case would be the one you responded to.
>
> Martin Shobe


When the first Homo sapiens was born,
what was the species of mother and father?

David Bernier




Date Subject Author
9/11/17
Read Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/11/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
R.J.Chapman
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Jim Burns
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Peter Percival
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Peter Percival
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Jim Burns
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
zelos.malum@outlook.com
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
zelos.malum@outlook.com
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Tucsondrew@me.com
9/16/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Jim Burns
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Jim Burns
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
davidlpetry@gmail.com
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
zelos.malum@outlook.com
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FredJeffries@gmail.com
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/17/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FredJeffries@gmail.com
9/17/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/17/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
mitch
9/17/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Jim Burns
9/12/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
conway
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Peter Percival
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/13/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Dan Christensen
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
zelos.malum@outlook.com
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
Martin Shobe
9/15/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
FromTheRafters
9/28/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
David Bernier
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
jsavard@ecn.ab.ca
9/14/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
R.J.Chapman
9/16/17
Read Re: Mathematics, consensus, John Baez
jsavard@ecn.ab.ca

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