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Topic: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Replies: 324   Last Post: Nov 27, 2006 2:04 PM

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Patricia Shanahan

Posts: 482
Registered: 6/5/05
Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Posted: Sep 13, 2006 9:57 AM
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Phil Carmody wrote:
> Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> writes:
>

>> Charlie-Boo wrote:
>>> Alec McKenzie wrote:
>>>

>>>> In which case you must have meant to say "A formal proof that in
>>>> every programming language there is a program that outputs
>>>> itself".
>>>>
>>>> It seems clear to me that that cannot be true

>>> Why?
>> Consider, for example, an XML-based Turing Machine description language
>> in which the tape alphabet is limited to {'0','1',' '}. No program's
>> source code can appear on the tape, because every XML document contains
>> '<' etc., yet the language is Turing-complete.

>
> But that's simply a matter of encoding, they're information-theoretically
> equivalent. Something that outputs
> 100100011010010100001
> or
> 010010000110100100100001
> or the baudot equivalent, or...
> has, in my opinion, output 'Hi!'.
>
> If you have turing machine that can only output blank and mark, then
> it can never output zero using your logic, yet I presume that turing
> machines which had such an alphabet were used for arithmetic examples
> in your Computability 101 course without you batting an eyelid.
>
> Phil


The reproduce-your-own-source problem usually calls for the exact text
of the program source code, not just some encoding of it.

It would be an easier problem if you were allowed to use an encoding. To
do it in e.g. Java I would pick the encoding in which:

"public static void main(String[] args){System.out.print(1);}"

is represented by the number 1, and any other string is represented by
its Unicode encoding, treated as an integer, plus 10.

This is a very different sort of problem from the usual computability
problems. Solving the empty tape halting problem cannot be made easier
by any changes in how "halts" and "does not halt" are represented in the
output.

Patricia


Date Subject Author
9/9/06
Read Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/9/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Alec McKenzie
9/9/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/10/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Alec McKenzie
9/12/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/12/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
George Greene
9/12/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
John Thingstad
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/12/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Patricia Shanahan
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Phil Carmody
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Patricia Shanahan
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Patricia Shanahan
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Alec McKenzie
9/13/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/13/06
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Alec McKenzie
9/13/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/13/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Alec McKenzie
9/13/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/14/06
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Alec McKenzie
9/14/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/14/06
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dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
9/14/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/14/06
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dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
9/14/06
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Alec McKenzie
9/9/06
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Peter Smith
9/9/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/10/06
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George Greene
9/10/06
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Peter Smith
9/10/06
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Chris Menzel
9/10/06
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Peter Smith
9/10/06
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Chris Menzel
9/12/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/23/06
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Chris Menzel
9/23/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/12/06
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George Greene
9/12/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/14/06
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George Greene
9/15/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/20/06
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George Greene
9/20/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/15/06
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(not a)\\/b
9/15/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/12/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/12/06
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9/12/06
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9/13/06
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9/13/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/13/06
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Peter Smith
9/13/06
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9/13/06
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9/14/06
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dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
9/14/06
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9/14/06
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dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
9/14/06
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9/14/06
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dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
9/14/06
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9/14/06
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dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
9/15/06
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9/15/06
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9/15/06
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9/16/06
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9/17/06
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9/17/06
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Steven Zenith
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/18/06
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Patricia Shanahan
9/18/06
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Steven Zenith
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/18/06
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Patricia Shanahan
9/19/06
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Steven Zenith
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/18/06
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Steven Zenith
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/18/06
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Patricia Shanahan
9/18/06
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Chris Menzel
9/18/06
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Patricia Shanahan
9/18/06
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Chris Menzel
9/19/06
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Steven Zenith
9/19/06
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stephen@nomail.com
9/19/06
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Steven Zenith
9/19/06
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stephen@nomail.com
9/20/06
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Steven Zenith
9/20/06
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Steven Zenith
9/16/06
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bogus address
9/16/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/17/06
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Steven Zenith
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/18/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Steven Zenith
9/18/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/19/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Steven Zenith
9/19/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/19/06
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Steven Zenith
9/19/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Steven Zenith
9/18/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Patricia Shanahan
9/18/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
bogus address
9/19/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Steven Zenith
9/14/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/14/06
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Steven Zenith
9/16/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Steven Zenith
9/16/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo
9/17/06
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Steven Zenith
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
10/2/06
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Charlie-Boo
10/2/06
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Charlie-Boo
10/3/06
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Steven Zenith
10/3/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/13/06
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Snis Pilbor
9/14/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/14/06
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Snis Pilbor
9/14/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/15/06
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Jan Burse
9/16/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/16/06
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Jan Burse
9/16/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/17/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/16/06
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Jan Burse
9/16/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/17/06
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ZZBunker
9/17/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/17/06
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Patricia Shanahan
9/18/06
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Charlie-Boo
9/17/06
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ZZBunker
9/18/06
Read Re: Why Has None of Computer Science been Formalized?
Charlie-Boo

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