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Topic: Another AC anomaly?
Replies: 280   Last Post: Dec 27, 2009 3:53 PM

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K_h

Posts: 419
Registered: 4/12/07
Re: Another AC anomaly?
Posted: Dec 9, 2009 7:44 PM
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"Virgil" <Virgil@home.esc> wrote in message
news:Virgil-1E8B09.00355309122009@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
> In article
> <c8idnc6JG6hv34LWnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> "K_h" <KHolmes@SX729.com> wrote:
>

>> It should be pointed out that N is a limit set even if N
>> is
>> initially given by a definition that doesn't involve the
>> notion of a limit.

>
>
> The issue between Dik and WM is whether the limit of a
> sequence of sets
> according to Dik's definition of such limits is
> necessarily the same as
> the limit of the sequence of cardinalities for those sets.
>
> And Dik quire successfully gave an example in which the
> limits differ.


I suspect those definitions are not valid. The definition I
used is the one on wikipedia and is generally `standard' --
as I've seen it in numerous places, including books and
websites. That definition is below. Using this definition
it is possible to prove that N is a limit and I presented a
proof of this in my previous post.

Let /\ = Intersection
Let \/ = union
Define infimum and supremum as follows:
liminf X_n=\/(n=0, oo)[/\(m=n, oo) X_m]
(n-->oo)
limsup X_n=/\(n=0, oo)[\/(m=n, oo) X_m]
(n-->oo)

> Here is another way to see that N is a
>> limit even if you consider it bad taste to define it in
>> those terms:
>>
>> Let \/ = union
>>
>> Let /\ = Intersection
>>
>> Define infimum and supremum as follows:
>>
>> liminf X_n=\/(n=0, oo)[/\(m=n, oo) X_m]
>> (n-->oo)
>>
>> limsup X_n=/\(n=0, oo)[\/(m=n, oo) X_m]
>> (n-->oo)
>>
>> If these two are the same then the limit exists and is
>> both
>> of them.

>
> The issue is not whether the naturals are such a limit but
> whether for
> every so defined limit the cardinality of the limit equals
> the limit
> cardinality of their cardinalities, which is different
> sort of limit.


It doesn't sound like a valid limit. With the definitions I
provided it is possible to prove, in your words, that "the
cardinality of the limit equals the cardinality of their
cardinalities". It is actually intuitively obvious: the set
of finite cardinals 0,1,2,3,... and the set of finite
ordinals 0,1,2,3,... both have cardinality ALEPH_0.

k




Date Subject Author
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Jesse F. Hughes
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Herman Jurjus
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
master1729
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
T.H. Ray
11/24/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Bill Taylor
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Daryl McCullough
11/30/09
Read What's wrong with supertasks? (was Re: Another AC anomaly?)
Herman Jurjus
12/1/09
Read Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Marshall
12/1/09
Read using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes of
Bentley College
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Seth Breidbart
12/1/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
12/2/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
LauLuna
11/26/09
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William Hughes
11/26/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Alan Smaill
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Alan Smaill
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
11/30/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/2/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/2/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
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Virgil
12/3/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
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K_h
12/7/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/15/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/15/09
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K_h
12/16/09
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Virgil
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/17/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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YBM
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/18/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/18/09
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Virgil
12/18/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/22/09
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Virgil
12/18/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Quaestor
12/21/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/21/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
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Marshall
12/21/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
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Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
12/12/09
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K_h
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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K_h
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
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Virgil
12/3/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
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Virgil
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
T.H. Ray
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/4/09
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Marshall
12/7/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
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Marshall
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/13/09
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Virgil
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/17/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/18/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/18/09
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Virgil
12/18/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Marshall
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/19/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/22/09
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Marshall
12/27/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/21/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/21/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
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Marshall
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/27/09
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Ralf Bader
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/13/09
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Virgil
12/4/09
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K_h
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/5/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/6/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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Carsten Schultz
12/2/09
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Virgil
12/1/09
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george
12/1/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/30/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil

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