Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » sci.math.* » sci.math.independent

Topic: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Replies: 134   Last Post: Aug 29, 2011 7:17 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
SPQR

Posts: 411
Registered: 8/12/11
Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Posted: Aug 19, 2011 3:44 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

In article
<e0fd6411-0ef0-4e57-809d-d5b957625a3a@r12g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:

> On 19 Aug., 16:38, hagman <goo...@von-eitzen.de> wrote:
> > On 18 Aug., 14:37, WM <mueck...@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:
> >

>
> > > > >              0.
> > > > >           /      \
> > > > >        0          1
> > > > >      /    \     /     \
> > > > >    0      1  0      1
> > > > >   /
> > > > > 0 ...

> >
>
> > > Please note the first statement that you do not agree with.
> >
> > > 1) The complete Binary Tree contains all infinite paths that represent
> > > real numbers of the unit interval [0, 1] (some of them even in
> > > duplicate, but that does not matter).

> >
> > With a proper definition of "complete binary tree" (let's call it
> > B_oo), e.g. the follwoing:

>
> How can one write so much about that innocent Binary Tree?
> But if you understand it better that way, it is ok. I understand it
> better my way.
>

> > So, yes, this statement can be considered agreeable.
>
> Fine.

> >
>
> > > 2) The complete Binary Tree is the limit of the sequence (B_k) of its
> > > finite initial segments. (A sequence consists of a countable number of
> > > terms.)
> > >

> > So in this sense, yes, B_oo is the limit of the countably many B_k.
>
> Fine.

> >
> > > 3) There is no B_(k+1) that contains two or more infinite paths that
> > > are not contained in B_k.

> >
> > It is an easy exercise, that no B_k (or B_{k+1}) contains *any*
> > infinite path at all.

>
> Yes.
>

> > This may be due to the fact that I used my definition of B_k, which
> > has the advab´ntage
> > of being a definition at all.

>
> It is obvious in any representation.

> >
> > As a consequence, the set of infinite paths in B_oo (i.e. in the
> > "union" of all B_k)
> > is not the union of the sets of infinite paths in the B_k.
> > Nothing could be easier.
> >

> B_oo contains all infinite paths as subsets. That is important.
> >
> > > My argument shows that no infinite path is constructed when the
> > > complete Binary Tree is constructed.


It does in my construction:


***************************************************************
* A Simple Model for a Complete Infinite Binary Tree:
*
* Let N be the set of positive natural numbers, {1,2,3,...} as the
* set of nodes, with 1 as the root node.
*
* For any node n in N, let 2*n be its left-child node and 2*n+1
* be its right-child node.
*
* It is easily seen that every node has two and only two child nodes,
* and so this construction forms a complete infinite binary tree
* from N.
*
* A path, P, in this tree is any minimal subset of N such that
* (1) 1 is in P, and
* (2) if n is in P then either 2*n, its left child, or 2*n+1,
* its right child, is in P, but not both
*
* Note that each child node can also be distinguished
* from its opposite child by whether it is an even natural and left
* child denoted by 0, or an odd natural and right child, denoted
* by 1, so that any infinite sequence, 1xxxxxx..., where each x is
* either a 0 or a 1, also designates a unique infinite path.
*
* Note that every path is necessarily an infinite subset of N.
*
* E.g., {1,2,4,8,16,...} (or 1000...)
* and {1,3,7,15,31,...} (or 1111...) are the paths with
* only left children and only right children, respectively.
*
* It has been proved that the set of all such paths bijects
* with the set of infinite binary sequences, and as the latter
* is well known to be uncountably infinite, so is the former.
*
***************************************************************





So I have shown, at least for
> > > those who believe in infinite paths, that Cantor's argument is wrong.
> > > The limit of an infinite sequence (here (B_k)) can contain entities
> > > that are not in any of the terms of the sequence.


It contains no elements that are not in some B_k, but since each B_k is
finite and every path is infinite, no path is a subset of any B_k ,or of
any other finite set, for that matter, and more than the entire tree is
a subset of any B_k.

> >
> > So what?
> > The limit sqrt(2) of the sequence 1.4, 1.41, 1.414, 1.4142,
> > 1.41421, ...
> > has the property that its square is an integer,

>
> If the limit has a decimal representation, then it must have that
> property. But does it?


It is not necessary for the existence of the limit, L, for that limit to
have a decimal representation, it is enough that the difference between
the alleged limit and the terms of the sequence from some point onwards
be sufficiently small.

> Correct. And the limit of the complete Cantor-list may have the
> property to contain its diagonal number.


A complete Cantor list is most unlikely to have a limit.

And every such a list of binary sequences can always be shown, by easy
extensions of Cantors own diagonal argument, to have omitted as many
such sequences as it contains.









> But the Binary Tree contains
> *uncountably* many subsets that are not in any of the finite initial
> segments B_k. That should trigger the process of wondering about
> actual infinity.


Since the number of subsets of finite set increases so much more rapidly
that the number of its members, why should one suddenly assume them to
become equal in the limit?
>
> > What you observe is thet the operations
> > "take the limit" (of trees or path sets) and "consider the set of
> > infinite paths" (of trees)
> > do not commute. Noone claims that they should.
> > There are many examples of operations that do not commute, how about
> > this one

>
> or this one: The limit, i.e., the complete Cantor-list contains every
> real number including its anti-diagonal whereas every finite initial
> segment of the Cantor list contains only a finite number of reals
> excluding its anti-diagonal.


WM is off his rocker again.

A "Cantor list" is any mapping from |N to 2^|N, and none of them contain
any of their own anti-diagonals.


Date Subject Author
8/13/11
Read Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/13/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Rupert
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Rupert
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Rupert
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Frederick Williams
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/15/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Rupert
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/15/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Porky Pig Jr
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Jim Burns
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Transfer Principle
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Virgil
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
hagman
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Peter Webb
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Jim Burns
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/21/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/13/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
at1with0
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
donstockbauer@hotmail.com
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Marshall
8/15/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Transfer Principle
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
master1729
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Transfer Principle
8/14/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Newberry
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Transfer Principle
8/16/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
DBatchelo1
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Dan Christensen
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Newberry
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Newberry
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Newberry
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Dan Christensen
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Newberry
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Dan Christensen
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Virgil
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/17/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
DBatchelo1
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/18/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
SPQR
8/20/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Virgil
8/19/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Newberry
8/29/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
|-| E R C
8/29/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Virgil
8/29/11
Read Re: Who's up for a friendly round of debating CANTORS PROOF?
Graham Cooper

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.