Date: Oct 29, 2012 12:04 AM
Author: kirby urner
Subject: Re: Speachless In New York (or, another OMG moment)

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Paul Tanner <> wrote:

>> Are you talking in absolute dollar terms or as a percent of GDP or
>> what? In absolute terms, many nations will barely register just
>> because they're so small, even if they're drowning in debt, as you
>> know.

> It does not matter, since either way, I was addressing what you wrote,
> "...Uncle Sam knocks at the door, himself in rags, holding that
> begging bowl, debtor to the world." Perhaps you should address your
> above questions to yourself.

Doesn't sound like you know. I was just making the point that Uncle
Sam is broke, but when he goes knocking on doors of supranational
corporations, they have a way of showing domestic losses. Empty
pockets here, sorry.

>> Here's a fun graph:

> I reply with what I said,
> along with the observation that had the tax code essentially stayed
> the same as it was before Reagan and all those conned by his con
> screwed everything up, with perhaps only some elimination of some
> loopholes, none of the debt or deficit problems that have occurred
> starting with Reagan would have occurred.

Another one:

Used in this same article:

Hypothesis contrary to fact arguments are always hard to bolster.
Science fiction = what might have been.

> Note that that graph you gave above shows that since WWII the national
> debt has trended up in a meaningful way under and only under the tax
> codes created under the Republicans Reagan and Bush, and has trended
> down under and only under the tax codes created under the Democrats
> Roosevelt and Clinton.

A lot of the debt increase relates to Treasury bonds sold to
non-nationals and/or private investors.

Taxes are not the only source of revenue. Tax payers should not take
credit for all the publicly funded programs they see, as they do not
cover the costs by themselves.

I agree with Romney that China is sponsoring a lot of US government
activities, such as NPR. I'm glad of that. Maybe China will invest
more in US trains as well, since North Americans tend to neglect this
infrastructure out of love for their automobiles.

> This graph is evidence of the fact that US conservatism is about
> mainly this: Kill the US Federal Government so that all that is left
> is so small it can be drowned in a bathtub (just as they say again and
> again) by killing its ability to obtain revenues. These people in many
> more ways than one are the "Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy" or
> their sympathizers for whom the Civil War against the US Federal
> Government never ended - it just became in 1865 a Cold War that has
> yet to end.

There is some truth to the notion that evangelical Christianity in
North America had a lot to do with developing pro-slavery doctrines
that are also useful in pursuing a kind of American "exceptionalism"
also known as "triumphalism" and "adventurism".

It all traces back to "Manifest Destiny" and the view that the USA is
destined to rule the world in some way, perhaps as foretold in the
Book of Revelations (by some interpretation or other).

This same Christianity is now working to justify why nuclear weapons
of mass destruction are authorized by the Bible, but only for some

This pits it against other brands of Christianity that have allied
with the Countdown to Zero campaign and that look on stockpiling nuke
weapons as akin to keeping slaves (a moral outrage, a sin).

I'm interested to see how this plays out.