Date: Dec 9, 2012 8:52 PM
Author: GS Chandy
Subject: Re: Democracy - how to achieve it?
He, Jing Yun (HJY) posted Dec 10, 2012 4:34 AM:
> I think that India needs to work out the problem how
> to improve ordinary people life by providing
> reasonable houses for people who live in not-so-good
> living conditions and by helping them obtain jobs so
> that they can live a life like most Chinese do.
> Democracy is something discussed about after solving
> this problem. It seems to me that Indian has
> democracy on the surface but its democracy does not
> benefit India. China does not have democracy but its
> government has accomplished something!
Robert Hansen (RH) posted on Dec 10, 2012 3:39 AM (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=7934614) that GSC (along with Gary Tupper) seemed
> to be conflating democracy with economics and give
> short shrift to liberty, justice and freedom. Keep it
> simple. The haves and have nots.
> Bob Hansen
I'm generally in agreement with HJY that India has some democratic institutions and instruments 'on the surface' but this has not (adequately) benefited a great many (far too many) Indians. AND also that China indeed - with little or nothing in the way of what is commonly understood to be democratic practice' on the surface - appears to have brought most Chinese people out of poverty and want.
It should NOT be inferred from the above that I am suggesting that India should go the route that China took.
I AM suggesting that the tools described in the attachments at the head of the post starting this thread could help:
- -- India in practice to bring about a real, much-needed transformation, through democratic means (deeper than 'democratic elections'), in the lives of its people. I know that a great many Indians do want this to happen. It does have to happen pdq if we are to survive as a nation much longer. (This is my prime focus of interest and attention).
- -- China in practice to bring about a real, much-needed democratic transformation in China that could help it do - practically on the ground - MUCH more than it has succeeded in achieving to date: there is still a lot of poverty and deprivation in China amongst common people.
There is a lot that China does have to do (most urgently) in-house in order to gain real respect in the world. In general, such Missions are for citizens of China like HJY to work towards. I observe that there are many Chinese citizens - e.g. Ai WeiWei, for one well-known example - who are actually working, in practice on the ground, to alter the societal systems in China: such tools as I have described could help them very significantly indeed.
- -- USA in practice to bring about a real, much-needed democratic transformation in the USA that could help it become - practically on the ground - the real 'leader of the free world' that it has incorrectly touted itself to be ever since when. There is a lot that the USA does have to do in-house in order to become a 'leader of the free world' in reality rather than merely in empty slogans.
I do want to observe to RH that he should try to learn to understand just what he has read before he falsely claims that GSC is "conflating democracy with economics and (giving) short shrift to liberty, justice and freedom".
[I'd believe that RH is equally mistaken in ascribing such "conflation" to Gary Tupper as well].
The tools that I suggest for problem-solving and decision making could help him work on Missions like:
- -- "to understand more accurately what I have read". (But he has to want to do that).
- -- "to learn to use my own mother-tongue (US English) with some clarity and precision". This is a most urgent need, as I see it, for RH - but he has got to want to do it.
If he were able somehow to work on such 'simple' Missions, that would very significantly help him to take up higher-level Missions as well.