Date: Jan 17, 2013 3:27 AM
Author: GS Chandy
Subject: Re: Update about "The community of mathematics educators: Join in defending fun

Robert Hansen posted  Jan 17, 2013 6:14 AM:
> On Jan 16, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Louis Talman
> <> wrote:
> Quite the contrary. We establish qualifications,
> review resumes and conduct interviews. We hire based
> on that process and compare results. We adjust our
> theory each iteration and we are competing with all
> of the other companies doing the same thing, so there
> is wide consensus and verification. What is not
> scientific about that Michael? Lou?

> >
> > Intent, for one very superficial thing. Your intent
> > is to hire someone---not to figure out how something
> > works.

> Superficial? Let me get this straight. The parents of
> these students are exhausting their savings. The
> students are exhausting their savings. The students
> and the parents are going into debt. Do you really
> not know why they are putting themselves in such a
> financial hard spot? The number one reason, by a
> margin so wide it is ridiculous to even have a number
> 2, is for a better life via a better job. And you say
> "superficial"?

Yes indeed. I claim, with Lou Talman, that all of this is entirely superficial.

I further claim it's all utterly superficial so long as the people involved do not at least try to work out just how all these very wonderful things they do, daily in practice on the ground (and in their minds) actually contribute - in the light of the situation that actually exists on the ground - to the aims they believe they hold dear.

(And YET FURTHER, how do all of these individual practices and aims of ours contribute to the global situation? Until that kind of exercise is done, it is all just superficial, I'm afraid. As we see each and every day that we 'progress' towards that unimaginable abyss).

I claim, further, that all the huge 'systems and processes', the instruments and instrumentalities that our society and all its institutions have in place (prime amongst them being, of course, our 'governments' and the main construct of our technology+finance-driven age, the 'corporations') - I claim all of this is just superficial. As is seen each day of our lives in the unholy mess we have created - and that we continue to create - on this planet of ours; in each nation on this planet.

We don't even begin to know what is 'not superficial'.

You with your ridiculous PERT Charts, Haim with his single ridiculous one-point agenda (which he believes is 'deep'): "PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!"

Yes, indeed, it is all utterly superficial.

Is it possible to get a little deeper? How?
Just start to put down what it is you wish to accomplish, what it is that you wish your democratic government to do for you - then learn how to work towards those aims, step by step.

THAT would be real, realistic - not superficial.

(If anything like this were ever to be done, of course. It will for sure take some doing).
> Just curious. When it comes to the financial well
> being of students, what do professors talk about
> around the water coolers these days?

Superficial stuff only.
> Back to the context of this discussion. I know what
> "better" means with regard to education.

YOU DO NOT! Perhaps you DO indeed know what the superficial stuff means - which you probably know very well indeed.
> My job often
> relies on me knowing what "better" means. I have 25
> years of experience and training in knowing what
> "better" means.

Indeed. And all of it utterly superficial, as is indicated by the reams and reams of PERT Charts that you had put up over all the walls of all the halls and corridors of your office (in the fond belief that you were doing something profound).
> As I see it, this alone gives me an
> enormous head start over researchers that are trying
> to figure out what "better" means. This frees me up
> to figure out what works in achieving "better".

An 'enormous head start', indeed!

All it has done is to give you the lead role in doing the REALLY superficial stuff.

("Still Shoveling!")

Message was edited by: GS Chandy