Date: Jan 25, 2013 5:08 PM
Subject: use fruit flies to get a number data Re: inbreeding as a<br> species-accelerant ; NOVA "Decoding Neanderthal" #199 Rockthrowing theory book

On Jan 25, 2:37 am, David Bernier <> wrote:
> On 01/25/2013 01:39 AM, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

> > Basically I am just simply asking for what mathematical advantage for
> > mutations arises for inbreeding. I do not know if any biologist has
> > researched this question. The question of how much faster or how much
> > more mutations accrue when a population of a species has inbreeding.
> > Such as when 1 male and 1 female are stranded on a island and up to
> > those 2 individuals to keep their kind growing. So there is much
> > inbreeding. And not outside mating. So that all generations on the
> > island trace their ancestors back to those starting 2.

> > Compare that population with an equal sized population that has no
> > inbreeding.

> > I would hazard to guess that the mutations of the inbreeding
> > population would be far ahead of the non inbreeding population.

> > And I think this is how so many islands that are isolated from their
> > mainland have so many different species that the mainland does not
> > have, is because of what I call the species accelerant of inbreeding.

> > So that Neanderthal was two Africans that migrated north out of Africa
> > some 400,000 years ago and because of inbreeding ended up as different
> > species of the Africans who migrated enmasse some 60,000 years ago.

> > So that the Clovis man who migrated to the Americas, either out of
> > Asia or Europe some 15,000 years ago, if Clovis man had been a single
> > 1 male and 1 female and populated the Americas, that by the time of
> > Columbus would have found, not the same species of Homo sapiens, but
> > perhaps a different species. So here we have a sort of scientific
> > prediction or question, of how many Clovis people migrated to the
> > Americas some 15,000 years ago so that their genetic stock was
> > sufficient to not mutate too much so that by the time Columbus
> > arrived, they would still be the same Homo sapiens species.

> > So we need some biology research into what sort of mutation rate is
> > increased in populations with inbreeding versus populations of
> > noninbreeding.

> > And in sociology we can recognize the problem of the American Indians
> > in that they needed tribal interactions with other diverse tribes
> > because of inbreeding.

> > Usually inbreeding brings out deleterious mutations, and rarely does
> > it bring out advantageous mutations.

> > Now I would be deeply surprised if no biologist has done research on
> > this before, of extracting a number for mutation rate in a
> > noninbreeding population and a mutation rate in a inbreeding
> > population.

> > So if we had such a numbers figure for this mutation accelerant and
> > applied that numbers to Clovis Man, we may be able to roughly estimate
> > how many individuals, male and female crossed over into the Americas.

> [...]
> Some common genetic diorders are single-gene recessive,
> meaning that one good allele and one bad allele
> makes for an Ok baby (a carrier), but two bad
> alleles makes for a "bad" baby who exhibits or manifests
> the disease linked to the "bad allele".
> And two good alleles makes an Ok baby also.
> That's for the genes carried on the non-sexual chromosomes.
> For diseases single gene recessive on the X sexual
> chromosome, one allele bad of the gene on the X-chromosome
> makes for a "bad baby" if it's male, cause the male has
> one X and one Y sex-chromosome.  But a female baby with
> two X-chomosomes and 1 good and 1 bad allele would be
> an Ok baby, but still a carrier.  This happens with
> hemophilia, if memory serves me well.
> The genes that make for a strong baby who will reproduce
> with optimal number of off-spring is highly non-trivial.
> Some game theory could be involved and there could be several
> optimal fitness genomes; also, variation of gene pool could be
> an asset for a loosely-bound tribe.
> Maybe some models can say something about the optimal strategy
> for an individual, like say considering marrying a second-cousin
> by age 37 if all else fails.  It's just speculation on my part
> that such studies/simulations/models exist.
> dave
> --

Hi David, now because you are holding a discussion with me in the sci.
newsgroups, I must warn you that there is a pitiful gaggle of persons
(jerks and freaks)
who will attack your email box to get you to stop talking with me.
This has been going on since 1993, where they attack everyone who
holds a conversation with Archimedes Plutonium. So be forewarned. Some
of those freaks will pretend to be me, but it is not me. So if you
see pollution in your email box, it is not me, but the hate-gaggle
crowd trying to get you to stop talking with me.

Now I need a number and a equation of biology to where inbreeding
accelerates mutation rate. In a diverse population of a gene pool, the
mutation rate is say hypothetically, 1 in a 10^6 per year. In a gene
pool of say 1 male to 1 female reproduction and reproduction only
among those parents and their offspring, the mutation rate should
increase drastically to what I am guessing is 1 in 1000 per year.

Maybe biology has already done the research and I am just not finding
the numbers. Perhaps biology was blind about inbreeding and never did
the research, because they never linked inbreeding with speeding up
mutation rate.

Now a natural first experiment would be to do it with fruit flies
since they breed rapidly. So taking a Adam and Eve pair of fruit flies
and watching them mate with inbreeding since no "new genes" were
introduced, we can get a number figure for how much more rapid is the
mutations accruing than the control group of a diverse gene pool.

Now likely the Neanderthals were a historical application of
inbreeding, in that a breeding pair wandered north from Africa into
Europe and with that pair some 400,000 years ago eventually gave the
Neanderthal species due to accelerated mutation because of inbreeding.
And when the diverse gene pool of Africans some 60,000 years ago
migrated into Europe, because they were diverse gene pool they had
superior genetics, especially HACNS1 with rock throwing superiority.
Neanderthal was a different species and so the African Homo sapiens
extincted them by rockthrowing encounters.

David, have you ever played dodge-ball in High School? It is best when
the two sides are about equal in throwing abilities. If one side is
all girls and the other all boys, the boys win in quick order. It was
the same situation some 60,000 years ago when African Homo sapiens
encountered Homo Neanderthal.

Now in human genetics with inbreeding we do glimpse the acceleration
of mutation by the European royal families and hemophilia. But that
was inbreeding with cousins. Imagine the mutations with inbreeding of
mother and son or brothers and sisters, or father and daughter.

That is what faced Neanderthal when they trekked north some 400,000
years ago. It is remarkable alone that they survived and populated
Europe, but no surprise at all that they became a distinct new species
with all that inbreeding and that they would be inferior to the Homo
sapiens that would invade 60,000 years ago.

So I need a mathematical rate of mutation with inbreeding compared to
the rate of mutation where no inbreeding occurs.

And I am rather sure that there is a huge rate increase in mutations
because one only needs to look at insect and bird species of a
mainland and the surrounding distant islands from that mainland. Those
islands usually contain different species from the mainland and
numerous different species all because inbreeding increases mutations
which then give rise to new species.


Google's archives are top-heavy in hate-spew from search-engine-
bombing. Only Drexel's Math Forum has done a excellent, simple and
fair archiving of AP posts for the past 15 years as seen here:

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
?where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies