Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by NCTM or The Math Forum.

Topic: Matheology � 258
Replies: 104   Last Post: May 5, 2013 2:26 PM

 Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
 ross.finlayson@gmail.com Posts: 2,019 Registered: 2/15/09
Re: Matheology § 258
Posted: May 5, 2013 11:53 AM

On May 5, 7:50 am, fom <fomJ...@nyms.net> wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 9:27 AM, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlay...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> >> Almost seems like:  making indices N x N, has that for the one image,
> >> each element is finite yet unbounded, while for the other it is
> >> infinite.  This basically gets into considering a copy or instance of
> >> N, then another, has in some manner the sputnik of quantification or
> >> here correlation among the two, that for the same specification, one
> >> has finite and unbounded elements, the other finite and unbounded and
> >> as well: infinite elements.

>
> > Indeed an infinite set is a set, i.e. an actual (i.e. completed, in the
> > math sense) infinity, while N is the potentially infinite.  My hunch is
> > that we should be using N* (the compactification of N, to begin with) as
> > the counting set outside the finite realms: then arithmetic and set
> > theory could indeed be equivalent.

>
> Isn't that what modern logic forces upon us?
>
> To interpret the universal quantifier for the
> natural numbers have to be a totality.
>
> In Markov, the potentially infinite is described
> relative to a specific set of definitions for
> constructed syntax and a specific recharacterization
> of quantifiers with respect to those constructs.
> In view of such careful reasoning, simply attributing
> potential infinity to |N without consideration of
> what is involved with the interpretation of quantifiers
> seems as if it is missing something.

What is the set of natural integers? Sets are defined by their
elements, so it is a set that satisfies the predicate contains(n) for
each n that is a natural integer. Then, in a pure set theory there
are only sets: what set is a natural integer? Generally the notion
is that the finite ordinals are defined, with a constant zero and a
rule to generate for each a successor, then that the set of finite
ordinals is an inductive set, where the set has the property that in
induction, the ordinal elements alpha can be used to build inductive
cases that for each ordinal alpha there exists a unique and distinct
ordinal alpha+1 that is not the successor of any previous number.
But, that is not so clearly all that a natural number is, an ordinal,
though the ordinals are given labels matching those of the natural
integers. Natural integers have arithmetic defined, to define the PA
or PA (Presburger (+) or then Peano (+,*) Arithmetic), while the
labels uniquely identify elements of the domain and range of those
operations as functions, addends and sums, multiplicans and products,
the establishment of the values of sums is a consequent raft of
theorems that: go into the definition of natural integers, thus, into
any pure set they are in as to what elements they are.

Then the notion as above is that to have elements of the naturals and
inductive set identify distinct elements, and then to have a copy of
an inductive set indicate elements of those elements, basically
building the space of rows and columns instead of just induction, has
then built a sequence and not just course-of-passage, and as the
complement exists an omega-sequence, with the compactification of N
(point at infinity) thus resulting as a theorem instead of as a
definition as it is in ZFC, with the only constant besides 0, the
ordinals, being omega, the next limit ordinal and itself defined as
the collection of finite ordinals.

Basically then is a consideration that the operation of a set that is
an ordinal alpha to successor is then to the closure of a set w that
is of finite ordinals to correlation with sets of finite ordinals,
that builds systems with the completed infinity from the potential:
back into the language of the collection of elements. Then, well-
foundedness aka regularity isn't necessarily a true axiom, not that it
is anyways from pure naive set theory, but that N e N isn't
paradoxical because it is only from building up the systems to that,
variously:

the naturals are implicitly compact
there are infinite elements in the naturals

These features of the numbers, in their entire collection, aren't so
directly relevant to most one-off computations of finite arithmetic or
their unbounded associations. Then where that is ignored, having the
natural numbers as sets as ordinals, is a reasonable abstraction to
keep the overall machinery out of the way of simple computation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Elementary_arithmetic

In pure set theory, sets are defined by their elements and contain
only sets. In number theory, numbers are indviduals generally built
from the natural integers, and all the operations on them and
relations among them, and as to equality of the values of the numbers
in extended number systems toward the continuum of real numbers, with
1 = 1.0, and so on. Then, as pure sets, numbers are all those things.

Elements of an inductive set, ordinals that contain their predecessor,
and naturals, aren't interchangeable. Ordinals and naturals can
serve as representations of elements of an inductive set, and in
various cases as representations, or labels, or names, of each
other.

Then as above where the sequence is the representation, in the 1-ary
representation of a value, succession was used to build the sequences,
then to go over all of them and build a different sequence, puts the
omega-sequence into the language, of the finite sequences.

Then, Cantor's result is interpreted not as making the collection of
finite sequences incomplete, instead, introducing the compactification
to then: that of the language of the representations, the resulting
element of that representation, is a point at infinity. Basically
then this is the notion of having a construction of omega, as a set
and not necessarily and indeed not a well-founded set, instead of
defining it as a constant in the language which would then be
inconsistent with the resulting construction.

Then number theorists might find it easy to work up using sets for
containing numbers, in provisional set theory where the notion of sets
is just for quantifiers over elements satisfying predicates and as to
induction: that the natural integers can have a point at infinity
without breaking ZFC.

Regards,

Ross Finlayson

Date Subject Author
4/29/13 Virgil
4/29/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
4/29/13 Virgil
4/30/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
4/30/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
4/30/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
4/30/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
4/30/13 Virgil
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/1/13 JT
5/2/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/2/13 Ed Prochak
5/2/13 Virgil
5/2/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/2/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/2/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/2/13 Virgil
5/3/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/3/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/3/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/3/13 Virgil
5/3/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/3/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/3/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/3/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/3/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/3/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/4/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/4/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/4/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/4/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/4/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/4/13 ross.finlayson@gmail.com
5/5/13 LudovicoVan
5/5/13 fom
5/5/13 ross.finlayson@gmail.com
5/5/13 ross.finlayson@gmail.com
5/5/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/5/13 Virgil
5/5/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/5/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 Virgil
5/5/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/5/13 Virgil
5/4/13 Virgil
5/4/13 Virgil
5/5/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/5/13 Virgil
5/5/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/4/13 fom
5/4/13 Virgil
5/4/13 ross.finlayson@gmail.com
5/4/13 Virgil
5/4/13 Virgil
5/4/13 Virgil
5/4/13 trj
5/4/13 Virgil
5/3/13 Virgil
5/3/13 Virgil
5/3/13 fom
5/3/13 dan.ms.chaos@gmail.com
5/3/13 fom
5/3/13 gus gassmann
5/3/13 Virgil
5/2/13 Virgil
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 JT
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 JT
5/1/13 Bergholt Stuttley Johnson
5/1/13 rt servo
5/1/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 Virgil
5/1/13 Virgil
4/30/13 Virgil
4/30/13 mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
4/30/13 Virgil
4/29/13 ross.finlayson@gmail.com
4/29/13 Virgil